Episode 1: Disability Belongs in the Classroom

Cami  0:00  
Welcome to the Disability belongs podcast. 

Hello, thank you for choosing to listen to the Disability Belongs Podcast. I'm your host Cami and I'm so excited to get into today's episode with Tatum Tricarico. Just a quick disclaimer before we get started that the opinions expressed in the Disability Belongs Podcast do not necessarily reflect the opinions of CFILC, its member organizations or YO! Disabled and Proud. And with that out of the way, let's get into today's episode. 

Our guest today has a bachelor's degree in Christian studies and philosophy and is a Master's of divinity student. She has written a killer honors project (it was 86 pages!) about Disability theology. She loves Cheez-its. And she was my roommate, and she's my best friend. Please welcome Tatum Tricarico. Hey, Tatum!

Tatum  0:57  
Hi, thank you so much for having me on your awesome new podcast.

Cami  1:01  
Woohoo! I'm so excited. 

Tatum  1:02  
Me too!

Cami  1:04  
So I think the story of how we met is pretty good and we should tell that before we get into real stuff.

Tatum  1:11  
I agree. 

Cami  1:12  
So I am a year younger than Tatum and I started in college, and within the first two weeks of school, I... Well, first of all, I remember seeing a blind girl on campus. And I was like, Yeah, I need to be friends with her. Which I'm pretty sure that's not how you're supposed to make friends. But it worked. So, within the first two weeks of starting at college, everyone I met was like you have to meet my friend. There are two people that you have to meet my friend. I thought they're talking about two totally different friends. And then they're like, you have to meet Tatum. And I was like, okay, and then I think I texted Tatum. Hi, hi, let's be friends. I don't know how that worked. Tatum what did I text you?

Tatum  2:02  
You said, Hi. I'm Cami. I said I don't. Cami. You said and I want to join the club.

Cami  2:11  
Oh, right. Right. The Disability club on campus

Tatum  2:14  
a Disability club on campus. I was very briefly the President.

Cami  2:18  
Yes. And I think I was the vice president for like 20 and a half minutes, but really, that one fizzled, but we've we've done some better Disability stuff since then. 

Tatum  2:28  
Yeah we have! 

Cami  2:29  
So the first day that Tatum and I met, I said, Hi, I'm Cami I have POTS, which is Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome. That's a mouthful. And Tatum goes

Tatum  2:46  
And I said, I have pots too. So it was very exciting.

Cami  2:52  
We're still friends. It's been three, four years. I don't know. We're stuck with each other for life now.

Tatum  2:59  
Yeah, we're stuck its good. 

Cami  3:01  
And one of our first Hangout days together. I dyed Tatum's hair blue.

Tatum  3:07  
Yes, she died my hair blue. I did not know you well, at all. And our hair was blue. And it was supposed to be blue for like, what? Four or five weeks was the deal? Yeah, like a call with blue for a like dysautonomia or POTS Awareness Month? Yes.

Cami  3:27  
It was blue forever. 

Tatum  3:31  
The goal was the month for the Awareness Month. And we it was blue for probably a solid five or six months. So I had blue hair for a while. Yeah, you know,

Cami  3:42  
definitely wash my hair with tomato sauce to try and get the blue out. It didn't work in that I was just covered in tomato sauce. So

Tatum  3:51  
Oh, no. 

Cami  3:52  
Maybe don't dye your hair blue. Maybe don't dye your hair blue in your dorm room when you have no idea what you're doing. Yeah,

Tatum  4:00  
but you live in you learn. But that was a fun first friend date situation. 

Cami  4:06  
Yeah. And since then, we've learned so much from each other. I've learned so much from Tatum about Disability justice, and I just love my Toom. She's the best.

Tatum  4:18  
I love you too.

Cami  4:20  
I don't really know how to transition from that into our first question. But,

Tatum  4:24  
you know, I think it all really relates. Yeah, I

Cami  4:26  
think just jump in. So what was your experience growing up as a Disabled person in the school system? 

Tatum  4:34  
Yeah, it was very interesting. Um, so I think when I was younger, um, I put my Disability into an only medical category. Like, and I think my, like my doctors and people in like, a lot of just leadership positions above me, sort of put, put my Disability as just a medical thing. And so I didn't have any concept that it can, could or should affect me in elementary school or middle school or whatever. And so I knew that I used things like in enlarged print, and that I couldn't get down the stairs like everybody else could, um, but I didn't use a cane and I didn't have any accommodations kind of other than the large print, and then eventually the iPad, and to read in large print. And so I didn't, like I didn't really pay attention to it, and it would just sort of pop up from time to time in conversations with, like, kids and teachers of like, teachers being like, Oh, let me help you with this, or kids being like, what? What's wrong with you? Which was always a fun question. 

 Um, and then, in high school, my vision changed pretty significantly. In my sophomore year of high school, and I started walking with a cane started working with a one on one aid. And, like, at that point in my life, I knew that I was disabled, at least in some ways, I wouldn't say necessarily identified as Disabled yet. But I knew that it impacted my life bigger than just, I don't just medically and so I started paying more attention to it, and like processing it more than, um, and I think that that really true that made the start of high school and the end of high school very different in very interesting ways. But yeah, I think I had, it was an interesting experience. It was a roller coaster.

Cami  6:51  
Can you talk a little bit more about that change in high school, and kind of what the beginning of high school was versus what the end of high school was with that vision change?

Tatum  7:03  
Yeah, so I think, especially once I was in high school, but I think this is true younger, too the school system sort of pushed in a way of like, I knew that I had accommodations, but I wasn't like "those people" was kind of the general assumption and the least, like, like the least I could identify with my disability, the better was what all of the teachers and all of those students were like, either intentionally or unintentionally pushing me into. And so I think I started out High School, really, and I started out high school. And I took my first kind of special education classes. I was pulled out in elementary school and middle school for certain things, just like, every so often, but in high school, I had my, first freshman year, I had my first special education class. And I had that once a day, for all four years of high school, that I was in like a sort of like, it was called, like a learning strategies class. So it was like with other students with IEPs, who were in the general ed program. And so I And that, again, was like the least that you can identify with these people, the better. Like, identify with your other classes, and your other classmates. 

And that was really hard for me, because then when I did, like, when I did experience that change in my vision, I didn't know what to do. And I initially noted it as a really bad thing. But I think in some ways, pretty quickly came around to the fact that not only was it not, and I wouldn't have noticed this at the time, but I think not only was it not a bad thing, but that I was like living more fully into myself, because I think I had to notice it in other realms other than just medically at that point. And so I don't think I like I wouldn't have put those words to it at that point. But it was, it was helpful for me to go through that in some ways. It was really terrifying and hard and a lot of other ways. But instead of pushing away from identifying with Disabled people, I got to like claim my identity as a Disabled person. And I don't think I really claimed it until college, but I do think that I had like being forced to deal with it, made it so that I could claim it and acknowledge it and like be honest with myself about what my body was, and that was really helpful. 

And so I think when I started using my cane and working with aids, friends were really thrown off and even family potentially it was really thrown off about Just like what that was, and I think people were really upset. And people were really scared, as was I but I also looked at it as a positive thing of like, it was helping keep me from pain, and it was helping keep me from issues that I was having. And so when they would react really strongly, negatively, it was almost jarring for me to be like, Oh, this is like, helpful. And like doing something positive in my life, this cane or this aid, eventually, the aids were really challenging to deal with an eye not system is really messed up in a lot of ways. But I think just, I don't know, being able to recognize that I did need support and like to honor myself in that way was really helpful. Even if I didn't notice it. I was just kind of scared at that at the time.

Cami  10:57  
Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I know, I've gotten to know you. So I know that you have a really strong sense of Disability Pride. 

Tatum  11:07  
Maybe too strong? 

Cami  11:08  
Too strong? I don't know if that's possible. You definitely have a giant Disability Pride flag hanging... I can't see it right now, but

Tatum  11:18  
it's really big. It's hanging above my desk. It's like the size of my entire it's actually bigger than my desk. I think it's a very big flag.

Cami  11:26  
Can you talk about what helped you to develop Disability Pride?

Tatum  11:32  
Yeah, I think a lot of things I think mostly though, the community. Um, so I connected with, I started volunteering in my High School's special education classroom. And I didn't want to at first I kind of got forced into it by one of my one on one aides, which was very odd. Um, and I didn't want to at first and then because I was so pushed in this idea of like, don't identify with Disabled people. So once I started being part of that classroom, and realizing that people talked about how different Disabled people were from people in the general education program, and I realized that I was part of that, and that it wasn't a difference. Because I was like, within that community, and then that I didn't feel wildly different from my abled peers. And so in college, connecting with people, like you and other Disabled people, was really, really helpful. 

And then I had a few professors who really encouraged like, learning about ableism, and learning about how it wasn't just my, because I kind of noted everything as, oh, this is a really awkward moment. And I'm part of it. And it just was what it was. And it was a moment, and then it was over. And then I didn't think about it. But linking them all together, as ableism made me realize that it was sort of this systemic thing. 

And so connecting with the community felt really huge. And that community was also really present on Instagram. And that was really powerful for me to lean into that community and recognize how many other people were dealing with similar things. And then I wasn't like by myself in it. And so in all of those spaces, I started really recognizing that, like, there was space to be proud of this group, because I loved these people. And so that was a huge thing. And then also to learn the history of the Disability rights movement, and people like Ed Roberts and Judy Heumann, and Justin Dart, and moments of the 504 Sit-Ins and Capitol Crawl and things like that, and just the lovely and powerful and beautiful things that Disabled people have done. Reading about and learning about and now getting to have conversations about all of that. Really, like changed my understanding of where I was rooted and it was kind of no longer like me trying to disconnect from this thing, but instead me living into this identity as a Disabled person, and being part of this amazing community and this amazing history that just like gave me a lot of reason to be proud. So yeah, I love it.

Cami  14:31  
I love that answer. So much!

Tatum  14:33  
Thanks!

Cami  14:33  
I love that I helped you develop Disability Pride because I always think about how you helped me. Yeah, you probably never think about it the other way. Oh,

Tatum  14:43  
Oh, yeah. No, I if I were not connected with Disabled people in college, there would have been no way I could not have had any of these random conversations to get to this point. Yeah.

Cami  14:55  
No, who would have thought the conversation at the top of the stairs about how we didn't realize that we had the same because it condition would result in us recording a podcast together. I love it. 

Tatum  15:07  
That's fun.

Cami  15:09  
If you could write a letter to baby Tatum in high school, who maybe didn't know what Disability pride was yet? What would you say? Oh, yes, I did steal this from our speaker series. And I always think it's the hardest question to answer. And now I'm going to make you answer it. 

Tatum  15:27  
Yes. So I I think I would just kind of, Wow, this is like making me more emotional than I thought it would. I think I would just say, like, be who you are. Because I don't think I think I was so worried about. Like, I was really concerned when I was younger, about confidence. And I always felt like I really wasn't very confident. But I knew that I had these really like powerful dreams and like plans and things that I wanted to do. And I knew that I really enjoyed things like public speaking and being in front of people and being a leader. And so I was both feeling very not confident, but also feeling like I was really called to this sort of work. And I think part of that was that I wasn't allowing myself to lean into the fullness of who I was. And I think part of that was in relation to Disability, I think in a lot of other ways, too. But I think just to give myself space to just be as I was, I think I was worried about like, what, not even so much what people would think, but just, I was just worried about how I portrayed myself. Um, and so I think just leaning into what I wanted to be in that moment, and like, what, like, what was true for me, would have been really huge. And so I think I would just like, give myself space to be me. In those moments. I think I still should be giving myself space to be me right now.

Cami  17:15  
I love you. I love you as you need to be you. Also, I really wish I could give you a hug right now, which are like 3000 miles away.

Tatum  17:24  
I'll give you a microphone hug. I am in fact hogging the microphone. That's probably gonna make a weird noise. Maybe that's a lot.

Cami  17:30  
Maybe don't hug microphones. I don't know. We're just starting this podcast. 

Tatum  17:35  
We're learning. We're learning,

Cami  17:36  
We're learning new things every day. Okay, so this is not an appropriate question, I'm going to preface this question with this is not an appropriate question, to go around asking people, because there's a lot of stigma surrounding it. But I have preemptively gotten Tatum's permission for this. And in the spirit of normalizing accommodation, I think it's a really important question to ask. So what are one or some accommodations that have been really helpful for you, as you navigate the school system as a Disabled person?

Tatum  18:13  
Oh, I'm okay. Are we still talking on like, primary school?

Cami  18:22  
You can go whatever you want primary school, college. How has that changed?

Tatum  18:25  
Okay. Well, you know, here's what I'll do. I'll say that my cane has been really, really helpful. And I don't know if I was honest enough with myself about where my vision was at before now to know if I needed it when I was younger, but I think in some ways, it would have been helpful potentially when I was younger. So I think I wouldn't have even known that that was an option. But allowing, like allowing ourselves to use mobility aids, and I don't know, having that not the last case scenario. 

Cami  19:02  
It's not a worst case to need a mobility aid.

Tatum  19:06  
Its just a helpful option for people who it would be helpful for. I never had depth perception, so I couldn't get downstairs like everyone else could.

Cami  19:16  
Okay, wait, this is really interesting. Can you you've described this to me before, are you comfortable describing to the podcast? What like what you say when

Tatum  19:25  
you mean you don't have depth perception? Yes. So everything is just flat. And there's no there's no distinction unless there's a shadow. So I have no concept of like, if there are stairs and there's not like a painted edge of the stairs or a difference in coloring or a shadow then it is just flat. Um, and so when I was like up until I was like seven or eight probably, I would like sit down on stairs and just Like slide down them so that I didn'tfall, 

Cami  20:02  
So that you didn't unintentionally slide down them? 

Tatum  20:06  
Yes. Would it be more? If I were not using my cane currently? Would that be the way that I would go? Maybe? Um, but I was, um, yeah. And so and then every so often, because my eyes kind of flow in and out of alignment, every so often, my eyes will pop into a spot for a couple of seconds where I do have depth perception. And then I spill whatever I'm holding. I don't know what's going on.

Cami  20:36  
It's true. If you're around Tatum, and she gets depth perception, she goes, "woah I just got depth perception for a second."  That would fall under the category of like, things you don't hear unless you're around other Disabled friends.

Tatum  20:52  
Yes, that was definitely a big one. Yeah, so that was a huge accommodation that I use now. And I also, I currently have a reader in each of my classes. Very currently, I'm five weeks into grad school and have had a reader for a week. So y'all can do the math there on how well that's going.

Cami  21:17  
I can't do math in my head. But I think that's four weeks without a reader.

Tatum  21:21  
Yeah. Without reading. Good times! But anyway, I currently have a reader, which is a person in each Well, at this point, it's not been an undergrad, it was a person who was in each of my classes, who got paid to read the homework out loud, and assist with pulling quotes from our readings for essays. And that was amazingly helpful. 

Specifically, reading any motion of my eyes hurts. So reading is nearly impossible. And screentime hurts. So even using things like screen readers can only happen for so long. And so I had a reader in each of my classes that I did homework with, and I had a one on one aid in high school. And I think that I think that, especially in a high school setting, it could have been appropriate to have assigned a peer. Or something that was not as messy as the one on one aid situation was. I don't know exactly what that looks like. But I will say that that was a very helpful accommodation and a needed accommodation. But the way that the one on one aides were set up at that point, and still currently, puts a lot of people in a lot of really negative and harmful situations. 

And so I don't suggest, I don't suggest finding one on one aides who fall asleep in class or who make really uncomfortable comments. But I do suggest using the accommodations that you need for your body, because that was hugely helpful for me, and just helped me honestly, like using the accommodations that I needed has helped me like, tell the truth about who I am. So I think, yeah, leaning into those accommodations, like helps you tell the truth about your body and the way that you exist in the world. And so even if it's, like, awkward to use, being honest with yourself, and being creating a safe and like helpful environment for your body is really important.

Cami  23:34  
Yeah, and I think just as a reminder, accommodations aren't necessarily this one size fits all approach that a lot of institutions try and make it. Gust because you're Diisabled, doesn't mean that you'll benefit from one and a half or two time length tests. Yes, a lot of Disabled people do benefit from that and do need that as an accommodation and that is something that is very valid. However, giving that to every single Disabled person that applies for accommodations is probably not going to solve many issues like

Tatum  24:13  
boxing people in to those categories of Oh, everyone needs this or everyone who's this way needs that is never helpful.

Cami  24:22  
Yeah, accommodation should not be a like check box list. If you need this one Check here if you need this one check here. Sometimes, you need really, quote unquote, strange accommodations like in high school, one of my accommodations was that I had an empty desk next to me, so that if I was having trouble sitting up that day, I could just kind of lean on the desk. I don't know sounds kind of silly, but was something that a teacher was like, I noticed this was helpful for you. When we accidentally did it. Let's get that officially in your accommodation plan. Yes, we loved teachers that don't judge you for halfway laying down in class.

Tatum  25:05  
Yes. That's so important. I love that. 

Cami  25:08  
So, what are some ways that the school system was? And we're talking like, Elementary, Middle High School? Mostly ish? What are some ways that the school system was helpful for you? And what are some things that you wish you could be like? Oh, my gosh, this needs to change, like 10 years ago?

Tatum  25:30  
Yeah. Okay, so let's talk change first, so that we can end on a more positive note, I think changes that need to happen. In my particular circumstances. The entire system around one on one aids needs to be different. Because I was put in a lot of situations where it was just me and one one on one aid in a room. And there were a lot of moments that they made comments that were not okay to make high schoolers.

Cami  26:06  
Can I interrupt you really quickly? 

Tatum  26:08  
Yes. 

Cami  26:09  
Can you describe what a one on one aid is?

Tatum  26:11  
Oh, yes. So a one on one aid is a paraprofessional who is a like adult, who has been hired by the school to accompany a Disabled student to classes. So I had a one on one aid to read stuff out loud to me in my classes, other people had one on one aides, to monitor their interactions with people, or help them get access to spaces or wheel them in their wheelchair, or whatever other different things that they needed. And so my one on one aid, we would leave the classroom and read all of this stuff out loud. Um, and so that then put me in a lot of situations where I was by myself with this person, who then could tell me whatever they wanted, so could be gossiping about other teachers, or other students could fall asleep, could tell me that they, like thought that I was doing an awful job at being a student. And I was just there by myself. 

Um, so that the hiring process, there's very, very little requirements, if any, to become a one on one aid, and they get paid pretty well. And so that is concerning. 

Cami  27:43  
It doesn't sound like there's a lot of training. 

Tatum  27:46  
And there's not a lot of training, there's almost little to no training that happens. And so that is a huge thing that needs to be changed.

And then I also think this dynamic that puts students in a position to be in competition with other students needs to be changed. Because in our learning strategies classes, we were sort of, we were not the special education classroom, there was a specific special education classroom. And we were other classes of general ed students who had IEPs. So it was special education, but we were taught in that classroom explicitly and inexplicitly to be as, quote, unquote, like, "unlike" the students in special education classroom as we possibly could. And so the less that we could relate to our peers, the better. And so that thus means the less that the least, that you could relate to your identity, the better. And that was horribly harmful. And so I think that is something that I would love to change. 

And I would love to, I would love to be sort of witness to a movement where Disability pride gets brought into these special education classrooms. Because I was in special education all the way through, and was never taught about Disability history, or Disability culture or Disability pride. I was just taught to advocate for myself and be independent, which was all sort of pinned on me as things that I had to do to not be part of this community. But instead, understanding this community of interdependence and love and advocacy for the group is really powerful. And to know that we're part of that really would change a lot of students outlooks on life. And so I think that that would be really meaningful.

Cami  29:54  
Yeah, What would it what would it be to have a special education system that Disabled people they're worth and also the phrase special education system like we can get rid of that phrase. While we're, while we're on the list of things we want to change. 

Tatum  30:09  
Yes, exactly. 

Cami  30:10  
But what if we taught Disabled people their worth, instead of teaching them how to better smush themselves into society and deny who they truly are?

Tatum  30:20  
Exactly, that would be huge. Yeah, and I think probably in in terms of like positive outcomes of that, I think the, the services that I was offered were really helpful. So I had mobility training, and I wish that I had had a significant li longer time with my mobility specialist. And I had training on how to use a cane, how to use public transit and things like that through this school. And that was really transformational for my life, and really helpful, and is probably the reason that I felt comfortable living on campus and things like that. So that was really huge. And then I had access to a case manager, who would, sort of or a vision specialist in the earlier years, who would advocate to all of my teachers to get the accommodations. 

And I wish that that were still a thing in higher education, because I could go in to class knowing that I would have a test accessible. Whereas now I'm having to plan three or four weeks in advance just to get tests in Braille and to get things accessible. And so I think that that was really formative for me was to know that I had, and I don't think that's true in every school system. But I think in mine in particular, I knew that I had a right to that access. Because I got it without too much of a fight. I think what I really had to start fighting was when I really wasn't comfortable with the one on one aides that I had. And that's where things got messy, but I think getting the actual services in the school was really helpful for me.

Cami  32:26  
Yeah, and I think, not only did you have an advocate, but also the legal system in the US, for education for Disabled people. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but there's a lot more legal precedence before you get to college. So you're legally guaranteed more things like IEPs, individualized education plans, do not apply. Once you get to college, you could, you can sometimes use them to help you develop an accommodation plan in college, but there's a lot less legal grounds to stand on. Although it is obviously still illegal to discriminate against Disabled people in higher education. But there's not the same kind of precedent for it. And so, I have found that I've had a lot more issues in college than in high school.

Tatum  33:18  
Yes, I agree. I've had a lot more issues in higher education. And I don't know if that's because I was in a pretty well off. I don't know, I was in a pretty like, wealthy neighborhood in I guess wealthy is the wrong word. But the the school district that I grew up in was, like, known to be a very good school district. And so I'm wondering if part of it was that, but I think also there was just a legal precedent that is not there in higher education.

Cami  33:53  
That's just so frustrating, like, the thought that you could be like, Oh, yes, I went into a better high school, so I was more accommodated as a Disabled person. 

Tatum  34:02  
Yeah. 

Cami  34:02  
Which is not just a thought it's very much a reality. 

Tatum  34:05  
Yes.

Cami  34:07  
In particular, at least, that's what we have experience with. Yeah, that's just terrifying that you could go you could just you could not have access to your education, because you happened to be in a lower income area or etc.

Tatum  34:30  
Yeah It's It's terrifying. How little Yeah, just how little accommodation gets thought about and how it's always a last in areas like that is really scary.

Cami  34:46  
Yeah, combination, thus far has not been built into systems. It's always added on at the last minute.

Tatum  34:54  
Yeah. And if you don't have time, or money or space to add it on, then it doesn't get added. Yeah.

Cami  35:01  
Yeah, And then you don't have Disabled people that can access it. And then you can make the argument that, oh, there aren't Disabled people accessing our service, therefore, we don't need to accommodate. But they can't access your service. So you don't know that they're Disabled people trying to access your service. Okay, sorry, that was soapbox.

Tatum  35:23  
I agree. It's real.

Cami  35:25  
So I'll step off that soapbox for now, for now, we'll probably come back later. Yeah, it'll definitely come back up later. So the title of this podcast is Disability Belongs, what does Disability belongs mean to you

Tatum  35:44  
I think it means that every aspect of a person's life, whether they're Disabled or not, Disability belongs in. And so I think it gives space for Disabled people to go wherever they want to. And also for non Disabled people to be an ally in whatever areas that they're in.

I kind of want to tell a little bit of a story. I have, well, we won't, we won't show it because I don't know if I'm supposed to have it. But I want to tell a little bit of a story in that I, when I was an undergrad, I'm one of my, well, two of my professors actually noticed. And I had told them that the lighting and one of the rooms was really hurting my eyes. And so my assumption was that we would just move the room just go to a different room do classes in a different room where the lighting didn't hurt. 

But these professors were wonderful and stubborn. And so they decided that instead of moving the room, that they wanted to buy lamps for the classroom, because they firmly believed and this was true of my entire education in undergrad that the two, the the two of them firmly believed that I should have access to every space in the same way as every other student. And so they bought lamps, and the lamps had these little remotes with them, um, and those remotes, they, when they bought the lamp, handed me the remote. And they said, you get this remote, and you need to give back at the end of the semester. And they, so they gave me the remote said you need to give it back at the end of the semester. But we want you to keep it throughout the semester. So that you can control how bright the lighting is, what color the lighting is, and like where the lighting is coming from. So that way you have the power to access this room yourself. And you kind of come like you can access this room in the same way that everyone else can. And so that, like physically holding that remote has reminded me that that I as a Disabled person should get the choice to belong in every space that everyone else gets to belong in. So that was a very physical reminder of the fact that Disability belongs in every space. And I think that that more metaphorically give space for everyone in a really powerful way. So yeah, that's that's my story.

Cami  38:53  
Oh, I love that story. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. Tatum. Thank you so much.

Tatum  39:01  
I'm so excited. I'm ready to watch this take off.

Cami  39:06  
I know. 

Tatum  39:07  
Or listen to it Take off? 

Cami  39:08  
Listen to it take off.

Tatum  39:09  
Yeah, well listen to it take off. I'm excited.

Cami  39:12  
Well, thank you for joining me. If you want to follow Tatum on Instagram, which you do want to follow Tatum on Instagram. 

Tatum  39:20  
Yeah, you do. 

Cami  39:21  
You'll get all kinds of Disability justice and theology and wonderful content. She is @blind_person_in_area. Blind Person in Area. 

Tatum  39:35  
 Blind Person in Area!

Cami  39:38  
Go follow Tatum there. And while you're on Instagram, you should probably also follow the podcast on Instagram. So follow @disability_belongs_podcast. And we can't wait for our next show. Bye Tatum!

Tatum  39:58  
Bye!

Cami  40:00  
Thank you so much for listening to our first ever episode of the Disability Belongs Podcast. This podcast would not be possible without the support of the California Foundation for Independent Living Centers, and the YO! Disabled and Proud program. I would love to shout out my entire team Evan, Tatum, Cameron Russell, Jessica, Megan, Dan and Christina, thank you so much for your support of this podcast. And a special shout out to Juliet who taught me all things about podcasting. I can't wait for the next episode. Join us then.

Transcribed by otter.ai